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Nov 20th, 2008, 8:23am
   Mischel Internet Security Forum
   TrojanHunter
   LiveUpdate (Moderators: Helena, Gavin_Coe, Magnus)
   Fractional Updates		 « Previous topic | Next topic »
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   Author  Topic: Fractional Updates  (Read 1693 times)
tosbsas
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Fractional Updates
« on: Mar 15th, 2005, 6:24am »		 Quote Quote  Modify Modify
Hey Marcus
 
once again my question: Any news about getting the update size smaller?? Just updating the new definitions instead of the whole database??
 
Ruben
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Magnus
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Re: Fractional Updates
« Reply #1 on: Mar 15th, 2005, 10:45am »		 Quote Quote  Modify Modify
I don't have any date or release when this will have been implemented. All I can recommend is if it's a big problem you may want to schedule unattended updates so that they don't interfere with your normal computer operation.
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tosbsas
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Re: Fractional Updates
« Reply #2 on: Mar 15th, 2005, 11:19am »		 Quote Quote  Modify Modify
hmmm - sad. I tavel a lot and the hotelconnections are a mess - and expensive
 
Ruben
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Re: Fractional Updates
« Reply #3 on: Mar 15th, 2005, 11:48am »		 Quote Quote  Modify Modify
If that's the problem then you can get a cheap wireless Internet connection at any Starbucks coffee shop.
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tosbsas
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Re: Fractional Updates
« Reply #4 on: Mar 15th, 2005, 12:04pm »		 Quote Quote  Modify Modify
Hmmm - no Starbucks in Buenos Aires, only one in La Paz, haven't seen any in Asunción. .....
 
Sorry but I am in Latinamerika - WIFI is still hard to get here.
 
Once again understand your point, but I will keep on reminding you not to forget about that point (:-_))
 
Thanks for such a great programm
 
Ruben
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Randy_Bell
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Re: Fractional Updates
« Reply #5 on: Mar 17th, 2005, 3:47am »		 Quote Quote  Modify Modify
Ruben,
 
I understand your predicament, and sympathize, but if you just give a little thought to the problem, you will understand that differential updating requires a completely new database structure.
 
Magnus, nor any developer, cannot easily or quickly implement a whole new database structure, so as to facilitate a new differential updating scheme.
 
The examples you have given in the past involve vendors who started with such a database structure and updating scheme.  To go back and "redo" the database structure in midstream, if you did not start with such a scheme, is not easy.
 
Do you recall this picture I posted?
 

 
That is a pic of TDS-3 "radius" update, which is a daily update and over 2 megs in size; actually larger than the TH ruleset update.
 
If it were an easy thing to do, TDS-3 would have converted to a different structure and update scheme by now.  So would Norton AntiVirus and McAfee VirusScan, and several other AV vendors who don't yet have such a differential updates scheme.
 
I sympathize but you will have to be patient, or otherwise use another product which fits your updating needs.  Magnus isn't dodging the issue, it is more complicated than appears on the surface.  A little thought on your part, rather than just continuing to push with making demands, and you would see this I'm sure.  It is not that easy to change one's database structure in midstream to accommodate the new updating scheme.
 
Thanks & Warmly,
No Offense Intended,
Your Fellow TH-User,
and Online Pal, Ran
« Last Edit: Mar 17th, 2005, 3:49am by Randy_Bell » IP Logged
tosbsas
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Re: Fractional Updates
« Reply #6 on: Mar 17th, 2005, 5:43am »		 Quote Quote  Modify Modify
Thanks Ran
 
I never wanted to be pushy or else, just keep on remining Magnus that there is a way of making a great product even better.
 
I understand that the change of database is a huge step, but as I said before ....
 
Once again - Magnus - it was never my intention to bugger you or anything like that - just the friendly reminder of guy who likes your product a lot.
 
Ruben
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Re: Fractional Updates
« Reply #7 on: Mar 17th, 2005, 6:03am »		 Quote Quote  Modify Modify
on Mar 17th, 2005, 5:43am, tosbsas wrote:
just the friendly reminder of guy who likes your product a lot.

I understand that too, is your motive {pure, without guile, intended to be helpful}.
 
One reason I have spoken thusly is because I as a Norton AV customer have wanted them to change updating schemes for years, but {sigh} it just isn't easy to do.  I'm sure Symantec has the resources and brains to do it, but with their installed customer base and such, I imagine there would be some considerable "pain" involved in making such a huge transition.  But it would be nice for Norton to have small differential updates similar to NOD32, Dr. Web, or KAV.
 
Magnus and TH do not have the huge installed base that Norton or McAfee has, but still it is a big step.
 
Warmly, Ran
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doubledown
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Re: Fractional Updates
« Reply #8 on: Mar 17th, 2005, 8:12am »		 Quote Quote  Modify Modify
Just as a matter of interest I was under the impression that Norton AV updates are differential updates - as far as I recall I tend to get live updates about 400 - 500 kb in size, whereas the "Intelligent Updater" download which I understood contains the full viral signatures database is about 5 Mb, so I assumed that the live updates could not contain the full signature database.
 
Thanks for the explanation of the issues involved in implementing differential updates, I appreciate that it's a major task and I understand that it's not an attractive option or a high priority for a developer to totally re-structure their product in this manner.  
 
Actually I wonder if there is really much incentive for developers to do so in any case, given that broadband is quite rapidly becoming more widespread. However, it would be greatly appreciated by users such as myself with no immediate plans to change from my creaky 5 kb/s dial-up!  Cry For a friend of mine with a 2 kb/s dial-up connection who I recommended TH to a couple of years ago it is now almost unfeasible to continue with regular updates due to the time taken.
 
But in any case I'll certainly continue to use TH because it's so good, perhaps it's me that should change my thinking and make the leap to broadband!  Smiley
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Re: Fractional Updates
« Reply #9 on: Mar 17th, 2005, 11:01am »		 Quote Quote  Modify Modify
Yes that's right, the "Weekly" LiveUpdate {LU} is a small one, albeit still not as small as the {often-hourly} Dr. Web or KAV updates.  Not sure but I think NOD32's daily updates {sometimes multiple updates on high viral activity days} are pretty small also.
 
I was thinking of Norton and McAfee Dailies, which are still large downloads.  So are the Beta Definitions updates for those products -- huge, Norton's is over 6 Megs now.  The {daily} Intelligent Updater and/or the RapidRelease defs are huge.
 
Kaspersky and Dr. Web were smart to structure their database from the beginning to accommodate small differential updates.  {The one exception is the KAV Cumulative, which comes out every few months and restarts a new updating cycle by completely replacing the entire bases with a fresh new database; that one is quite large, 4 or 5 megs in size.  Take a look here, the "Complete Update" listed there, which is the last Cumulative, is a 5.02-MB zipfile}
 
But yes you're right, I should have clarified that I was thinking of conversion of the "Dailies" {not Weeklies} to a differential updating structure:  Norton and McAfee have not yet done that.  I believe eTrust, AntiVir, and Panda are three others which have large Dailies as well; there may be others.
 
I'm sure Magnus has it as a priority and in the not-too-distant future we will see conversion to differential updating with a new release of the program.  When that happens, I suspect it will  require everyone to upgrade because previous editions of TH will be incompatible with the new database structure.  But Magnus can speak authoritatively on that of course. Wink
 
Take Care,
Warmly, Ran
« Last Edit: Mar 17th, 2005, 11:06am by Randy_Bell » IP Logged
Chuck
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Re: Fractional Updates
« Reply #10 on: Mar 17th, 2005, 6:16pm »		 Quote Quote  Modify Modify
Thank you doubledown.  I was wondering when that clarification would be submitted.  I bet the overwheming majority of Norton users use the weekly updates, not the daily ones.  Anyway, Randy, all, TH is a great program; but, I too long for the day of incremental updates!  Blessings to you!
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Re: Fractional Updates
« Reply #11 on: Mar 19th, 2005, 10:12am »		 Quote Quote  Modify Modify
Since TH updates, not just on a daily basis, but sometimes multiple updates in a single day, I assume y'all would *not* want a scheme similar to Norton's or McAfee's, where you would only get small downloads for weeklies, but for the others would have the 2-Meg downloads; that is what I was getting at in citing the two AVs {Norton and McAfee}; I assumed y'all do *not* want their updating scheme.
 
Take Care, I understand the frustration of those without broadband; even with broadband it still would be nice to have the quick small differential updates; but will likely require a restructure of the database itself in order to implement.  Again, I believe AVs like Norton or McAfee have *not* made the conversion because of the pain involved to their customer base, especially their corporate base.
 
As for what Norton users do, I think the more security-savvy users *do* implement daily updates, such as what are covered by dslreports and wilders in their updates forums.  I am currently very active at wilders updates, and we post the Norton dailies seven days a week; McAfee dailies on weekdays; both of which are large downloads.
 
Warmly, Ran
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Khaine
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Re: Fractional Updates
« Reply #12 on: Apr 20th, 2005, 3:43am »		 Quote Quote  Modify Modify
Maybe something like deltup could be used.
 
Quote:
Deltup is a program based on the "Delta Update Program" that acts much like the diff/patch to patch text file. In deltup's case, it allows the end user to take an existing tarball (from, say, an old version of Abiword) and use that as a base to download a patch that will bring it up-to-date.

 
I am unsure if it works against the def files of trojan hunter, otherwise diff and patch should work, or the definitions could be compressed and then deltup should work.
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Buddel
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Re: Fractional Updates
« Reply #13 on: May 16th, 2005, 4:03pm »		 Quote Quote  Modify Modify
on Mar 15th, 2005, 10:45am, Magnus wrote:
I don't have any date or release when this will have been implemented.

It's fine with me as long as it is planned to be implemented. I would also like to see smaller updates. If you're on dial-up and have a relatively slow Internet connection, downloading full signature databases can be a real pain in the ***  Wink
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Re: Fractional Updates
« Reply #14 on: May 17th, 2005, 8:26am »		 Quote Quote  Modify Modify
on May 16th, 2005, 4:03pm, Buddel wrote:

It's fine with me as long as it is planned to be implemented. I would also like to see smaller updates. If you're on dial-up and have a relatively slow Internet connection, downloading full signature databases can be a real pain in the ***  Wink

 
DITTO
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